My Legacy vs 2002 Audi S3
- Thread starter Altezza-Dan
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Altezza-Dan
Octane Boostaholics
must try get in one or 2 practice sessions before then so. How often are the open tracks days on in Mondello?
Dagnut said:
Dagnut I know its the new one, I drive an Audi after all!
I've been in one of those new S3s too and if both drivers were equal the leggy wouldn't stand a chance.
Regarding the DC5 integra I still think they must be a good track car as the DC2 Integra I drive in Mondello has more front end grip than any FWD car I've ever driven. It's unreal and even in the wet it puts its power down like no other FWD car out there bar the Renaultsport Megan F1 R32xyworegfqeurvghp....... with the tricky diff and the new Civic Type R with equally tricky diff. Those VTEC cars are only quick on smooth tarmac and roads which allow you to keep the revs high. As far as torque goes they are about as well endowed in that department as 2 stroke hedge strimmer!
Frawls
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Altezza-Dan
Octane Boostaholics
but its a 2002 S3 he has, not the new one! 
I was looking at one when I bought my B4 their not as quick..drove 2 of them..drove one with the MTM package which is a remap and an exhaust brings up up to 265..still didnt feel as quick.
The popular misconseption is that the legacy is a heavy car ..it isn't...the dry weight of the leggy is 1480 kg..the s3 is 1423kg because it uses they heavy Audi Haldex system..the leggy has an aluminium chassis....plus the S3 is bascially a fwd it only transfers the grip to the rear when it needs it..it doesnt grip as well and the steering isnt as direct..I still really like them but perfromance wise they dont match up too the the b4
The popular misconseption is that the legacy is a heavy car ..it isn't...the dry weight of the leggy is 1480 kg..the s3 is 1423kg because it uses they heavy Audi Haldex system..the leggy has an aluminium chassis....plus the S3 is bascially a fwd it only transfers the grip to the rear when it needs it..it doesnt grip as well and the steering isnt as direct..I still really like them but perfromance wise they dont match up too the the b4
Dagnut said:
The Legacy does not have an aluminium chassis, its steel. Only Jags, Audi's and some sports cars use aluminium spaceframe chassis. The Haldex system is actually probably lighter than the Scooby's system as it uses electronically activated diffs as opposed to the Viscous diffs in the Llegacy.
The S3 is basically not FWD. It is just more forward biased than the Scooby. The Legacy splits torque 50:50 until slip is detected. The Scooby has a superior awd system to the S3 as the S3 uses a transverse engine. Quattro is only available in Audi's with longitudinal engines and is comparable to the symetrical awd system used by Scoobys. Audi have developed a new quattro awd system for the forthcoming RS5 which is supposed to be one of the best awd systems ever made. Yours for the small matter of 120K!
Grip is a factor of the tyres and suspension. Traction is a product of the awd system. The S3 will have as much grip as the scooby if both have the same tryres, maybe more as its suspension is far stiffer resulting in less roll and thereby increasing tyre patch contact. Traction in either car is not going to be an issue on Mondello's hugely grippy tarmac. It provides more grip in the wet than a normal road in the dry. This is also why it is so abrasive on your tyres!
Frawls
Those weight figures are correct..check it out if you don't believe me..and i am right about the fwd system on the s3...the scooby is not forward biased until it detects slip its full time 50/50 torque split....theres no active diffs on a b4...no bias to the front at all...with the auto being 60/40 in favour of the rear..the S3 runs 0/100 to the front until slip is detected @ the rear and it applies power as needed..I did my research on the S3 when i was considering buying it.
Th aluminum chassis I could be wrong on but I will check it out..the others things I'm sure on.
Th aluminum chassis I could be wrong on but I will check it out..the others things I'm sure on.
http://www.grandamgt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21115
qoute
"Subaru engineers took some of the usual steps to cut weight, putting particular emphasis on cutting pounds at the Legacys outboard extremities, without sacrificing chassis rigidity. They replaced heavy steel frame components with lightweight aluminum and high-strength steel parts, tossed aside the stamped- steel sheetmetal hood for an aluminum one, substituted aluminum rear suspension lower control arms for heavy steel ones, and used an aluminum front bumper beam in place of steel. Yes, you can still get a sunroof on your Legacy, but the weight-cutting jihad led to a 15.5-pound weight reduction for the popular top-heavy feature"
qoute
"Subaru engineers took some of the usual steps to cut weight, putting particular emphasis on cutting pounds at the Legacys outboard extremities, without sacrificing chassis rigidity. They replaced heavy steel frame components with lightweight aluminum and high-strength steel parts, tossed aside the stamped- steel sheetmetal hood for an aluminum one, substituted aluminum rear suspension lower control arms for heavy steel ones, and used an aluminum front bumper beam in place of steel. Yes, you can still get a sunroof on your Legacy, but the weight-cutting jihad led to a 15.5-pound weight reduction for the popular top-heavy feature"
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Altezza-Dan
Octane Boostaholics
bonnet doesnt feel that light on mine! must compare it to someone elses! Nice to know i have aluminium bits and pieces on under mine! Also has plastic end caps on the intercooler, and plastic headers,further reducing the overall weight and increasing o-60 time by .0000000000000000000000000000000001 sec 
The Legacy does not have an aluminium chassis. Weight has been saved by using aluminium here and there like in the suspension and bonnet stc but as far as having an aluminium chassis I dont think so! Not even the current generation legacy has an aluminium chassis and its even lighter than the previous model.
Anyway that American site has no credibility. This article refers to the current model anyway. Most US site dont know their trunk from their boot or is that Sedan from their saloon!
If you mix aluminium and steel and you dont know what you're doing well be prepared for disaster. Witness the Ball Of Sh1te that was the Discovery MK1. The steel reacts with the aluminium and destroys the bonding material holding them together. If Subaru had cracked that particular one I think we would have never heard the end of it in advertising like Audi never stop harping on about its aluminium chassis and the Audi Space Frame in the TT which is 69% Aluminium and 31% steel. AFAIK they're the only ones to have cracked mixing the two in the chassis.
On of the main reasons the Legacy is so light is because it is made of lightweight steel for its external panels. Witness the clang when you close the door. They used the strong stuff in the rigid cross members, door frames, chassi, front and rear bulk heads etc. Most sites quoite the Legacy at between 1460 and 1490 kg depending on model specification.
Also read that the official BHP output of the B4 on 98ul is down to 254bhp. I read that on an Australian website and it was for an Aussie B4 as their best fuel is 98UL. That power figure was quoted officially by Subrau in Australia. On 95 UL BHP would drop to around 221 bhp on the basis that each octane is worth 11 bhp.
The S3's AWD is not 100% FWD in normal mode. I read it was actually around 13%. I know a strange figure indeed but I've seen it a few places now so it must be true.
Frawls
Anyway that American site has no credibility. This article refers to the current model anyway. Most US site dont know their trunk from their boot or is that Sedan from their saloon!
If you mix aluminium and steel and you dont know what you're doing well be prepared for disaster. Witness the Ball Of Sh1te that was the Discovery MK1. The steel reacts with the aluminium and destroys the bonding material holding them together. If Subaru had cracked that particular one I think we would have never heard the end of it in advertising like Audi never stop harping on about its aluminium chassis and the Audi Space Frame in the TT which is 69% Aluminium and 31% steel. AFAIK they're the only ones to have cracked mixing the two in the chassis.
On of the main reasons the Legacy is so light is because it is made of lightweight steel for its external panels. Witness the clang when you close the door. They used the strong stuff in the rigid cross members, door frames, chassi, front and rear bulk heads etc. Most sites quoite the Legacy at between 1460 and 1490 kg depending on model specification.
Also read that the official BHP output of the B4 on 98ul is down to 254bhp. I read that on an Australian website and it was for an Aussie B4 as their best fuel is 98UL. That power figure was quoted officially by Subrau in Australia. On 95 UL BHP would drop to around 221 bhp on the basis that each octane is worth 11 bhp.
The S3's AWD is not 100% FWD in normal mode. I read it was actually around 13%. I know a strange figure indeed but I've seen it a few places now so it must be true.
Frawls
you cant just pluck figures out of the air like that ..wheres the links? dan has had is car mapped and dynod for 95 at 280 with no boost increase so your talking marbles there...you cant' just knock off 11bhp per octane the ecu adjusts timing and air fuel ratios...PLUS the s3 is rated @225 on 98 so by your rational its actually only 203 on 95....your completely wrong regarding the s3..I'l be back with proof from Audi..there's now way its rear biased..
link 1 wiki ..states 95% is sent to front wheels
"e Haldex system automatically distributes power between the front and rear wheels depending on slippage, but normally sends 95% of the power to the front wheels"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haldex
"Although dubbed "quattro", the S3 uses a different four-wheel drive system. The Haldex Traction coupling adjusts the bias from the front to rear axle as grip changes - most of the time it operates as a front-wheel drive."
Link 2
http://www.netcarshow.com/audi/2002-s3/
link 3
heres tt lads talking about how only front wheels spin when its up on ramps needs to detect 6 degrees of wheel slipage to engage the haldex
http://www.tt-forum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=125104&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=
link4
http://www.ozaudi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17982
link5
just to further my point heres a company that sells haldex controllers..all transverse auids uses a front biased haldex
http://www.vagtech.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59&Itemid=59
that information on that us site is regarding the chassis structure of the BL released in japan..you should of read it..you dont hear subaru going about because they don't sell the B4 over here never have never will..
If you don't accept what I'm saying fair enough...I didn't post up inaccurate information about either car...I've backed up every claim I made..I have a review from CAR of the s3 from 2001 that's how I knew they where front driven...I'l scan that in for you if you like in case 5 different links isn't enough....I'm sure your on Audi forums why don't you get someone over there to confirm it?..I didn't just make it up to prove a point.the s3 is a better made car no doubt but the b4 is a more powerful better handling car, that's my opinion on it having driven both cars..that's why I bought a B4...the s3 has never been able to compete with jap awd.
"e Haldex system automatically distributes power between the front and rear wheels depending on slippage, but normally sends 95% of the power to the front wheels"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haldex
"Although dubbed "quattro", the S3 uses a different four-wheel drive system. The Haldex Traction coupling adjusts the bias from the front to rear axle as grip changes - most of the time it operates as a front-wheel drive."
Link 2
http://www.netcarshow.com/audi/2002-s3/
link 3
heres tt lads talking about how only front wheels spin when its up on ramps needs to detect 6 degrees of wheel slipage to engage the haldex
http://www.tt-forum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=125104&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=
link4
http://www.ozaudi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17982
link5
just to further my point heres a company that sells haldex controllers..all transverse auids uses a front biased haldex
http://www.vagtech.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59&Itemid=59
that information on that us site is regarding the chassis structure of the BL released in japan..you should of read it..you dont hear subaru going about because they don't sell the B4 over here never have never will..
If you don't accept what I'm saying fair enough...I didn't post up inaccurate information about either car...I've backed up every claim I made..I have a review from CAR of the s3 from 2001 that's how I knew they where front driven...I'l scan that in for you if you like in case 5 different links isn't enough....I'm sure your on Audi forums why don't you get someone over there to confirm it?..I didn't just make it up to prove a point.the s3 is a better made car no doubt but the b4 is a more powerful better handling car, that's my opinion on it having driven both cars..that's why I bought a B4...the s3 has never been able to compete with jap awd.
F
forester sti
Guest
Right!
Sorry I didn't spot this earlier, Great info about the Leggy and S3, both great cars, I have only ever seen the older model B4 on track and I have seen the S3 and passed it and lapped it!
I beleive on the road they would be more or less equel, the fundimental flawes in the drivetrain and chassis are very well masked be exellent ESP system, The A3 was not designed to have a big engine and AWD hence the Haldex not the prefered Quattro, But ESP doesn't suit the track, it applies the brakes and slows you down so much! (same as my golf)
Were as the leggy is designed to have it's big engine low down at the front, and it's gearbox behind it driving the Ideal symetrical AWD system,
The results as witnessed by myself at mondello is that the S3 seems to be very front heavy, seems to want to sail straight ahead when cornering I have never seen it cock up the rear wheel (which would indicate good front end grip like an integra for example) she gets good drive out of the corners and the brakes seem very good!
While the Leggy seems more tail happy, arse out is a regular enough site mid corner, So it would be trickier to drive but that shows better balance, So understeer wouldn't been such a big issue from what I have seem, The AWD on the leggy would work in such a way that when you plant the throttle when the arse is out then she'd pull straight in the direction that the front wheels are facing, so it just a case of not panicing when she does go out, (keep her lit)
So to clarify, the two cars would be equel on the road dew to the ESP on the S3 I do whole heartedly beleive the leggy is a better car on track and on the road in the hands of a very good driver!
To optimise your car for track,
Drop her abit (I think you already have that sorted)
Adjustable rear anti roll bar (set to tightest for the track and soft for road)
Jomo geometry setup, (hugh difference)
Mintex 1155 or Ferodo 3000 or EBC red/yellow on the front and fresh properly bled racing spec fluid (Go for brembos
) If you have good pads just keep them and use them again!
That's it, Total budget for above (not inc lowering) would be 700-800 I'd Imagine
Next open day is paddy's day next march!, there is usually one at easter (about a month later) aswell, so book in for paddy's day for practise and easter for your challenge!
Best of luck!
Dan
Sorry I didn't spot this earlier, Great info about the Leggy and S3, both great cars, I have only ever seen the older model B4 on track and I have seen the S3 and passed it and lapped it!
I beleive on the road they would be more or less equel, the fundimental flawes in the drivetrain and chassis are very well masked be exellent ESP system, The A3 was not designed to have a big engine and AWD hence the Haldex not the prefered Quattro, But ESP doesn't suit the track, it applies the brakes and slows you down so much! (same as my golf)
Were as the leggy is designed to have it's big engine low down at the front, and it's gearbox behind it driving the Ideal symetrical AWD system,
The results as witnessed by myself at mondello is that the S3 seems to be very front heavy, seems to want to sail straight ahead when cornering I have never seen it cock up the rear wheel (which would indicate good front end grip like an integra for example) she gets good drive out of the corners and the brakes seem very good!
While the Leggy seems more tail happy, arse out is a regular enough site mid corner, So it would be trickier to drive but that shows better balance, So understeer wouldn't been such a big issue from what I have seem, The AWD on the leggy would work in such a way that when you plant the throttle when the arse is out then she'd pull straight in the direction that the front wheels are facing, so it just a case of not panicing when she does go out, (keep her lit)
So to clarify, the two cars would be equel on the road dew to the ESP on the S3 I do whole heartedly beleive the leggy is a better car on track and on the road in the hands of a very good driver!
To optimise your car for track,
Drop her abit (I think you already have that sorted)
Adjustable rear anti roll bar (set to tightest for the track and soft for road)
Jomo geometry setup, (hugh difference)
Mintex 1155 or Ferodo 3000 or EBC red/yellow on the front and fresh properly bled racing spec fluid (Go for brembos
) If you have good pads just keep them and use them again!That's it, Total budget for above (not inc lowering) would be 700-800 I'd Imagine
Next open day is paddy's day next march!, there is usually one at easter (about a month later) aswell, so book in for paddy's day for practise and easter for your challenge!
Best of luck!
Dan
christypeuksti
Petrolheads
dan is our very own tiff needell 
Dagnut said:
There appears to be very little certainty as to whether the Haldex f/r split of torque is 100/0 or 95/5. Either way it is described as being FWD as it is so forward biased. That's what I said other than to refer to a figure of "about" 13% which I meant to say was referring to its forwards bias ie f/r 87/13. I read that in a magazine. I think I have it at home and will take a quick look for it tonight.
I also said Subarus's AWD system is far superior so no argument there also.
The Legacy's chassis is not aluminium. None of your links say it is an aluminium chassis other than to say weight was saved by careful use of aluminium "parts" in the suspension, front bumper etc. It's a fair stretch of the imagination to equate that with it having an aluminium chassis.
The present legacy turbo has been on sale in the US for a good few years. Subaru USA don't mention it as having an aluminium chassis either. The US Spec turbo is a 2.5 four cylinder boxer turbo. It is a detuned version of the 2.5 STI engine sold there with the emphasis on driveability rather than all out performance which characterizes its installation in the STI.
The bhp figures I quoted for the B4 was the 2.0 Twin turbo running on 98 ul in Australia not the present version with 2.5 single turbo as in the US or Jap spec model. Accordingly, there's no point making reference to Dan's 2/5 sti running on 95 ul as it has 500 cc's more anyway. These figures are officially quoted by Subaru Australia for 98ul. The bhp figures on 95ul are for a stock B4 running 95ul ie an Australian B4 which runs on 98ul as standard with its ECU retarding ignition back 3 degrees. These figures are estimates but based on the logical assumption that a stock B4 puts out 254bhp on 98ul but 276bhp on 100ul. That's a difference of 22 bhp per 2 octane or 11 bhp per octane. 95 octane being 5 octane less than 100 octane should equate to a drop of 5x11 bhp = 55bhp or 276-55=221bhp. I have seen plenty of EVO's putting out around this figure on 95 on the rollers in Westward Engineering and they are 276bhp on 100ul octane so I cant see why you have such a problem with 221bhp for a stock older gen B4 on 95ul.
Contrary to what you claim, you did post inaccurate information when you said the Legacy had an aluminium chassis. It absolutely does not. If you said it uses aluminium parts here and there to save weight then that would be a different thing entirely but that's not what you said at all. Neither did you back it up either in any of your links as you claim to have.
Your opinion as to which is the better car is only a subjective opinion but I agree with most of what you have to say, even though until both cars get out on track together its only a theoretical argument anyway. All I ever said was the car driven by the best driver would be the fastest.
Regardless of whether Haldex is FWD or as close to FWD as makes no difference, regardless of the Scoobys vastly superior AWD system and regardless of which car has the most power a good pilot in a Mini 1.6 Cooper (not even the Cooper S) would destroy both cars. I was down in Mondello a few months back watching one of the time attack cars testing and one of the Mondello instructors went out behind him in a Rover 214 and after 3 laps was only about 80m behind him and actually caught him under braking for nearly every bend after the pit straight! The time attack Impreza was massively fast down the straights but the Mondello instructors had no problem staying with him all the same proving the most important part of the car is the nut behind the wheel.
Frawls
Mark Cahill
Full ISDC Members 2015Member Number 555
^^^^^
Is Dan's Legacy not a JDM 2000cc Single Turbo Spec B??
Is Dan's Legacy not a JDM 2000cc Single Turbo Spec B??
E
ericsti
Guest
Altezza-Dan or "Dan" has a single Turbo Legacy.