[quote author=Dagnut link=topic=13039.msg161411#msg161411 date=1235675207]
[quote author=FRAWLS link=topic=13039.msg161218#msg161218 date=1235654383]
[quote author=Dagnut link=topic=13039.msg160781#msg160781 date=1235581441]
[quote author=FRAWLS link=topic=13039.msg160768#msg160768 date=1235580155]
You can clearly hear the front diff when he lets off the gas which makes it sound very motorsport. This car is expected to beat the Renaultsport Magean R 26 R's record as the fastest fwd car around the Nurburgring which it should easily do with the extra 70bhp.
There have been a lot of big claims made about this car. I have even read it would beat an EVO X on a track and I've drive the new EVO X and its handling with that Super AYC is otherworldly. The Revoknuckle front suspension which the RS shares with the Renault dies not eliminate torque steer but it is supposed to reduce it by up to 70%. If that is the case the little torque steer it has should be easily managed by the front diff and clever electronics as ford have taken a 3 pronged approach to dialling out as much torque steer as possible ie suspension, diff & electronics.
The 5 cylinder engine gives it a great sound but it's too muted compared to the new TT RS (which is about to be launched next month) which sounds miles better in the clips I've heard of it lapping the Nurburgring. It's the best sounding new car on the market and sounds even better than the original Quattro if you ask me.
Frawls
[/quote]
The R26 has McPherson struts with a modified section... the revoknuckle is totally unique to the the RS..Plato drove it on fifth gear and reckons it is the best hot hatch in the world...I was definitely one of the doubters and wouldn't be wholly convinced until i drove it but.
As far as the TT rs goes its 45k sterlling!! mad money puts into boxster s..z4m..even m3 terrirtory..the focus is 25k.
I agree agree about the evo ...the evo is only another 3k uk prices and the sti 330 which is due is only another 1500 both would kill the RS across any surface..Ford claimed the RS was fwd to save weight yet its only 40kg lighter than the awd sti? it will also have the same service intervals..c02 emissions and tax insurance..imo it will be compromised an as ugly as the STI is it is a faster car.
[/quote]
Its rare that I completely disagree with you but you're wrong on just about every point you've made above.
1. The Renault has the same type of pivot arm suspension as the RS. Both work on the same principal of the wheel turning around the the "knuckle" or pivot joint not the strut. Read EVO magazine, it's all there in black and white. Revoknuckle is Fords name for the same thing ie the pivot joint.
2. Autocar who have just driven the new RS said it's as fast as anything they've ever driven cross country! I rate their reviews highly, being the world's oldest car magazine but I'll reserve judgement until EVO gets their hands on it. EVO were one of the few magazines to pan the previous RS when all around were marveling at it's brilliance, which was the usual British bias towards Ford and in particular fast Fords.
3. The new TT RS is the spiritual successor of the original Quattro. When you add the essential options to the new Cayman S it will be much more expensive and likely slower in-gear. As the TT RS has not been reviewed yet I cant say how good it will be but if it's anything like the RS4 it will be stunning and just listen to that sound again....wow! Also Audi have detuned its 2.5 5 cylinder engine so as not to tread on its R8's toes. With a simple 400 euro remap it would easily add another 50bhp which would give it superior performance to any of the cars you named none of which have a hybrid aluminium space frame chassis like the TT RS.
4. Until the the FQ 300 and STI are group tested against the Ford RS it's hard to say which is best but I suspect on a track the RS will be the fastest and on the road it could well be the fastest also.
5. Price wise the RS was developed without awd to save money but yet it will not undercut its direct rivals much when it goes on sale. Fast Fords and in particular the RS models have some of the highest residuals of any car so the RS may proove to be quite a bit cheaper in the long run. The new RS will be produced in much greater numbers than the last model so its residuals may not be as strong as the older car.
[/quote]
Isnt the knuckle on the Rs in the center of the strut acting as a sort of double wishbone? could be wrong but I read it was a new patented design..the r26r keeps the strut but adds a knuckle? either way I have read up on I wouldn't be spouting I wasn't trying to contradict you just add something to the discussion..
As far the RS being faster on track I'm willing to bet it isn't ..its got torque limiters in the first 3 gears..sti/evo will launch much quicker out of bends..of course just my humble opinion not having driven the RS. It wouldn't be an issue only for I was in love with the escort Cosworth and was hoping the RS would be a rally bred weapon to aspire too..I'd hate to buy it and know it was compromised...there's always faster cars that's not the issue and I wouldn't be put of a fwd car but @ that price its into evo/sti territory and I can't see it being as good.
I'm sure the TT will be animal especially if it uses the haldex system with the 60/40 bias for the rear(not sure if this has been confirmed yet?) it will be cracking drive..wasn't doubting the car just the price
[/quote]
Both the Ford Revoknuckle and the Renaultsport Megan use the same type of suspension modification to limit torque steer. They are similar in both design and execution. Ford have indeed patented their system and given it a ridiculous name but its better than pivot joint I suppose! From an Intellectual property law perspective the fact that Ford's system is patented does not mean it is different from Renault's system, just that they are not identical. I'm sure that Mitsubishi have patented their AYC and subaru their DCCD but we both know that they are similar systems.
The old RS was faster on track than the old 262 bhp sti so I cant see why the new one wont be faster again. The limiting of torque in first, second and third wont be a problem on track where you will rarely use 1st and 2nd in a 6 speed car. the limiting of torque in third wont matter either as the momentum of exit speed from a bend will overcome any wheel slip (I know this from my own car). I wouldn't be putting down money just yet on which will be faster but I agree it will be a fascinating contest and make a welcome cahnge form the old Scooby -v- EVO debate which is more than a bit old hat now.
The TT RS uses Quattro not Haldex as the 5 in a line layout allows the use of true Quattro awd the same as the RS4. This car will be a tuners dream being both lightweight, aerodynamic and having a very tuneful and tuneable 5 pot 5 cylinder turbo. I'd expect to see the big German tuners like MTM and ABT churning out 470 bhp versions (they already do 400 bhp versions of the TTS)
Like you I dreamed of the Ford Sierra Cossie and later Escort Cossie as a kid and my brother had a Sierra Cossie so I'm always interested to see fast fords. The fact that the new RS is fwd just makes it more interesting as its not just another awd with a big turbo. It presented Ford's engineers with a serious challenge and it looks like they've done themselves proud. Dont forget without awd the RS is not hampered by awd transmission losses so like for like power it will be quicker once past the point of any minor traction issues
Frawls
[quote author=FRAWLS link=topic=13039.msg161218#msg161218 date=1235654383]
[quote author=Dagnut link=topic=13039.msg160781#msg160781 date=1235581441]
[quote author=FRAWLS link=topic=13039.msg160768#msg160768 date=1235580155]
You can clearly hear the front diff when he lets off the gas which makes it sound very motorsport. This car is expected to beat the Renaultsport Magean R 26 R's record as the fastest fwd car around the Nurburgring which it should easily do with the extra 70bhp.
There have been a lot of big claims made about this car. I have even read it would beat an EVO X on a track and I've drive the new EVO X and its handling with that Super AYC is otherworldly. The Revoknuckle front suspension which the RS shares with the Renault dies not eliminate torque steer but it is supposed to reduce it by up to 70%. If that is the case the little torque steer it has should be easily managed by the front diff and clever electronics as ford have taken a 3 pronged approach to dialling out as much torque steer as possible ie suspension, diff & electronics.
The 5 cylinder engine gives it a great sound but it's too muted compared to the new TT RS (which is about to be launched next month) which sounds miles better in the clips I've heard of it lapping the Nurburgring. It's the best sounding new car on the market and sounds even better than the original Quattro if you ask me.
Frawls
[/quote]
The R26 has McPherson struts with a modified section... the revoknuckle is totally unique to the the RS..Plato drove it on fifth gear and reckons it is the best hot hatch in the world...I was definitely one of the doubters and wouldn't be wholly convinced until i drove it but.
As far as the TT rs goes its 45k sterlling!! mad money puts into boxster s..z4m..even m3 terrirtory..the focus is 25k.
I agree agree about the evo ...the evo is only another 3k uk prices and the sti 330 which is due is only another 1500 both would kill the RS across any surface..Ford claimed the RS was fwd to save weight yet its only 40kg lighter than the awd sti? it will also have the same service intervals..c02 emissions and tax insurance..imo it will be compromised an as ugly as the STI is it is a faster car.
[/quote]
Its rare that I completely disagree with you but you're wrong on just about every point you've made above.
1. The Renault has the same type of pivot arm suspension as the RS. Both work on the same principal of the wheel turning around the the "knuckle" or pivot joint not the strut. Read EVO magazine, it's all there in black and white. Revoknuckle is Fords name for the same thing ie the pivot joint.
2. Autocar who have just driven the new RS said it's as fast as anything they've ever driven cross country! I rate their reviews highly, being the world's oldest car magazine but I'll reserve judgement until EVO gets their hands on it. EVO were one of the few magazines to pan the previous RS when all around were marveling at it's brilliance, which was the usual British bias towards Ford and in particular fast Fords.
3. The new TT RS is the spiritual successor of the original Quattro. When you add the essential options to the new Cayman S it will be much more expensive and likely slower in-gear. As the TT RS has not been reviewed yet I cant say how good it will be but if it's anything like the RS4 it will be stunning and just listen to that sound again....wow! Also Audi have detuned its 2.5 5 cylinder engine so as not to tread on its R8's toes. With a simple 400 euro remap it would easily add another 50bhp which would give it superior performance to any of the cars you named none of which have a hybrid aluminium space frame chassis like the TT RS.
4. Until the the FQ 300 and STI are group tested against the Ford RS it's hard to say which is best but I suspect on a track the RS will be the fastest and on the road it could well be the fastest also.
5. Price wise the RS was developed without awd to save money but yet it will not undercut its direct rivals much when it goes on sale. Fast Fords and in particular the RS models have some of the highest residuals of any car so the RS may proove to be quite a bit cheaper in the long run. The new RS will be produced in much greater numbers than the last model so its residuals may not be as strong as the older car.
[/quote]
Isnt the knuckle on the Rs in the center of the strut acting as a sort of double wishbone? could be wrong but I read it was a new patented design..the r26r keeps the strut but adds a knuckle? either way I have read up on I wouldn't be spouting I wasn't trying to contradict you just add something to the discussion..
As far the RS being faster on track I'm willing to bet it isn't ..its got torque limiters in the first 3 gears..sti/evo will launch much quicker out of bends..of course just my humble opinion not having driven the RS. It wouldn't be an issue only for I was in love with the escort Cosworth and was hoping the RS would be a rally bred weapon to aspire too..I'd hate to buy it and know it was compromised...there's always faster cars that's not the issue and I wouldn't be put of a fwd car but @ that price its into evo/sti territory and I can't see it being as good.
I'm sure the TT will be animal especially if it uses the haldex system with the 60/40 bias for the rear(not sure if this has been confirmed yet?) it will be cracking drive..wasn't doubting the car just the price
[/quote]
Both the Ford Revoknuckle and the Renaultsport Megan use the same type of suspension modification to limit torque steer. They are similar in both design and execution. Ford have indeed patented their system and given it a ridiculous name but its better than pivot joint I suppose! From an Intellectual property law perspective the fact that Ford's system is patented does not mean it is different from Renault's system, just that they are not identical. I'm sure that Mitsubishi have patented their AYC and subaru their DCCD but we both know that they are similar systems.
The old RS was faster on track than the old 262 bhp sti so I cant see why the new one wont be faster again. The limiting of torque in first, second and third wont be a problem on track where you will rarely use 1st and 2nd in a 6 speed car. the limiting of torque in third wont matter either as the momentum of exit speed from a bend will overcome any wheel slip (I know this from my own car). I wouldn't be putting down money just yet on which will be faster but I agree it will be a fascinating contest and make a welcome cahnge form the old Scooby -v- EVO debate which is more than a bit old hat now.
The TT RS uses Quattro not Haldex as the 5 in a line layout allows the use of true Quattro awd the same as the RS4. This car will be a tuners dream being both lightweight, aerodynamic and having a very tuneful and tuneable 5 pot 5 cylinder turbo. I'd expect to see the big German tuners like MTM and ABT churning out 470 bhp versions (they already do 400 bhp versions of the TTS)
Like you I dreamed of the Ford Sierra Cossie and later Escort Cossie as a kid and my brother had a Sierra Cossie so I'm always interested to see fast fords. The fact that the new RS is fwd just makes it more interesting as its not just another awd with a big turbo. It presented Ford's engineers with a serious challenge and it looks like they've done themselves proud. Dont forget without awd the RS is not hampered by awd transmission losses so like for like power it will be quicker once past the point of any minor traction issues
Frawls