Wheres best to get my car mapped??
- Thread starter sc86
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keith dublin
Member Number 161Full ISDC Members 2015
Simon is over from the uk in a week or 2 he is doing some mapping for some of the lads on here and he is a top lad who knows his stuff.
des delaney
Petrolheads
i would go to dave in sti tuning
give him a bell on 085 7715343
give him a bell on 085 7715343
keith dublin
Member Number 161Full ISDC Members 2015
davelegacy
Member Number 16
That's the $60,000 question Steve....
Personally, after trying both road mapping and on a Dyno I got much better results from the rollers. I got 25bhp more with .25bar less boost when mapped on the rollers. Way too much guess work going on with road mapping in my opinion.
I would recommend Couture but I've heard nothing but good things about Martin Tracey too.
Personally, after trying both road mapping and on a Dyno I got much better results from the rollers. I got 25bhp more with .25bar less boost when mapped on the rollers. Way too much guess work going on with road mapping in my opinion.
I would recommend Couture but I've heard nothing but good things about Martin Tracey too.
DavetypeR said:That's the $60,000 question Steve....
Personally, after trying both road mapping and on a Dyno I got much better results from the rollers. I got 25bhp more with .25bar less boost when mapped on the rollers. Way too much guess work going on with road mapping in my opinion.
I would recommend Couture but I've heard nothing but good things about Martin Tracey too.
Lot of varying opinions on that, the argument for road mapping is you get to see the car perform under real conditions> for the rollers you get to maintain constant speeds and revs which is difficult to replicate on the road.
mac mac said:DavetypeR said:Way too much guess work going on with road mapping in my opinion.
please elaborate on this point , jus as a matter of opinion as pat and bob(and simon) are some of the best road mappers to grace our shores !!
I completely agree mac mac that Bob and Simon are tried and tested experts and trusted traders on this site. Haven't heard of Pat but I'm sure its the same story if ye lads recommend him. My comment was related to personal experience with trying both methods.
I spent about a month researching both sides of the argument and decided to go with road mapping. After all we drive our cars on the road and almost any arguement could be counter argued with both for and against with equal credability.
The mapping service was hastle free and couldn't be described in any way other than excellent. After that had problems with cold starts and had practically no power difference between high and low boost settings even though there was a boost difference of .45bar. This was measured on a gtech ss so I thought maybe it was the gtech but my "ass meter" also seemed to confirm this. Turbo went then 5 days after mapping but it was the original turbo, 10 years old and had 53k kms on it.
Couldn't find a good vf24 so got the closest thing I could which was a vf28. Practially identical but decided not to risk just running it as is. Had to get it mapped again. The original mapper wasnt available for a while so decided to go to Couture purely for convienence and he is also a tried and tested trader here. Nick explained it would be mapped on the rollers and then tweeked on the road. Surely the best of both worlds so went with that.
Then worst case scenario.... engine went on the rollers. Long story short got it rebuilt and mapped again on the rollers and tweeked on the road.
Nick said when mapping there was no power increase above 1.3bar so he left it at that. This was due to the fact it had a standard exhaust and cat fitted. In my opinion I think this points out a major flaw in the road mapping theory. Had the original road mapper been able to identify that the power was not increasing above 1.3 bar (regardless of fueling and timing) he would have seen there was no need to go to 1.55bar. Yes they use g meters but obviously it wasnt working great that day. Or maybe there was a wind, up hill, down hill or what ever. This is what I mean by guess work. The car now makes 288hp and 255.4ftlb @ 1.3bar where it was making 273bhp and 232ftlb at 1.55bar after road map. After Nicks map I have no cold start issues and power delivery is much better. And yes I'm sure a freshly built engine can deliver more power than one on its last legs but boost inefficiency was due to the exhaust restriction not the engines ability to make the power.
So all in all I was much happier with the results of Dyno mapping with road tweeking. I also know lads who are happy with road mapping but they never tried dyno mapping. Different strokes for different folks...... but my preference is dyno and then tweeked on the road. As I said before this is just my opinion from personal experience. One thing that can't be disputed is that any mapping will increase the chance of mechanical failure as I also found out......the hard way
DavetypeR said:That's the $60,000 question Steve....
Personally, after trying both road mapping and on a Dyno I got much better results from the rollers. I got 25bhp more with .25bar less boost when mapped on the rollers. Way too much guess work going on with road mapping in my opinion.
I would recommend Couture but I've heard nothing but good things about Martin Tracey too.
Apologies.. 15bhp more with .25bar. Can't add anymore
keith dublin
Member Number 161Full ISDC Members 2015
Great reply and a good read
DavetypeR said:mac mac said:DavetypeR said:Way too much guess work going on with road mapping in my opinion.
please elaborate on this point , jus as a matter of opinion as pat and bob(and simon) are some of the best road mappers to grace our shores !!
e. One thing that can't be disputed is that any mapping will increase the chance of mechanical failure as I also found out......the hard way
Only if your mapping for extra performance, being mapped for the correct fuel would increase mechanical stability, reducing DET reduces the risk of piston failure. Some mappers are happy enough to turn the boost up on standard cars other aren't...I don't you should be expecting the turbo to fail at 53k either.
Good post and interesting read
OP
OP
DavetypeR said:mac mac said:DavetypeR said:Way too much guess work going on with road mapping in my opinion.
please elaborate on this point , jus as a matter of opinion as pat and bob(and simon) are some of the best road mappers to grace our shores !!
I completely agree mac mac that Bob and Simon are tried and tested experts and trusted traders on this site. Haven't heard of Pat but I'm sure its the same story if ye lads recommend him. My comment was related to personal experience with trying both methods.
I spent about a month researching both sides of the argument and decided to go with road mapping. After all we drive our cars on the road and almost any arguement could be counter argued with both for and against with equal credability.
The mapping service was hastle free and couldn't be described in any way other than excellent. After that had problems with cold starts and had practically no power difference between high and low boost settings even though there was a boost difference of .45bar. This was measured on a gtech ss so I thought maybe it was the gtech but my "ass meter" also seemed to confirm this. Turbo went then 5 days after mapping but it was the original turbo, 10 years old and had 53k kms on it.
Couldn't find a good vf24 so got the closest thing I could which was a vf28. Practially identical but decided not to risk just running it as is. Had to get it mapped again. The original mapper wasnt available for a while so decided to go to Couture purely for convienence and he is also a tried and tested trader here. Nick explained it would be mapped on the rollers and then tweeked on the road. Surely the best of both worlds so went with that.
Then worst case scenario.... engine went on the rollers. Long story short got it rebuilt and mapped again on the rollers and tweeked on the road.
Nick said when mapping there was no power increase above 1.3bar so he left it at that. This was due to the fact it had a standard exhaust and cat fitted. In my opinion I think this points out a major flaw in the road mapping theory. Had the original road mapper been able to identify that the power was not increasing above 1.3 bar (regardless of fueling and timing) he would have seen there was no need to go to 1.55bar. Yes they use g meters but obviously it wasnt working great that day. Or maybe there was a wind, up hill, down hill or what ever. This is what I mean by guess work. The car now makes 288hp and 255.4ftlb @ 1.3bar where it was making 273bhp and 232ftlb at 1.55bar after road map. After Nicks map I have no cold start issues and power delivery is much better. And yes I'm sure a freshly built engine can deliver more power than one on its last legs but boost inefficiency was due to the exhaust restriction not the engines ability to make the power.
So all in all I was much happier with the results of Dyno mapping with road tweeking. I also know lads who are happy with road mapping but they never tried dyno mapping. Different strokes for different folks...... but my preference is dyno and then tweeked on the road. As I said before this is just my opinion from personal experience. One thing that can't be disputed is that any mapping will increase the chance of mechanical failure as I also found out......the hard way
excellent reply dave thanks and you confirmed my thought on road mappin, il be leavin it with nick in cda or martin treacy, as my mechanic works in cda prob best get nick to do it
i realise who i leave my car with could make or break my car so thats why i asked cheeers
davelegacy
Member Number 16
DavetypeR said:mac mac said:DavetypeR said:Way too much guess work going on with road mapping in my opinion.
please elaborate on this point , jus as a matter of opinion as pat and bob(and simon) are some of the best road mappers to grace our shores !!
I completely agree mac mac that Bob and Simon are tried and tested experts and trusted traders on this site. Haven't heard of Pat but I'm sure its the same story if ye lads recommend him. My comment was related to personal experience with trying both methods.
I spent about a month researching both sides of the argument and decided to go with road mapping. After all we drive our cars on the road and almost any arguement could be counter argued with both for and against with equal credability.
The mapping service was hastle free and couldn't be described in any way other than excellent. After that had problems with cold starts and had practically no power difference between high and low boost settings even though there was a boost difference of .45bar. This was measured on a gtech ss so I thought maybe it was the gtech but my "ass meter" also seemed to confirm this. Turbo went then 5 days after mapping but it was the original turbo, 10 years old and had 53k kms on it.
Couldn't find a good vf24 so got the closest thing I could which was a vf28. Practially identical but decided not to risk just running it as is. Had to get it mapped again. The original mapper wasnt available for a while so decided to go to Couture purely for convienence and he is also a tried and tested trader here. Nick explained it would be mapped on the rollers and then tweeked on the road. Surely the best of both worlds so went with that.
Then worst case scenario.... engine went on the rollers. Long story short got it rebuilt and mapped again on the rollers and tweeked on the road.
Nick said when mapping there was no power increase above 1.3bar so he left it at that. This was due to the fact it had a standard exhaust and cat fitted. In my opinion I think this points out a major flaw in the road mapping theory. Had the original road mapper been able to identify that the power was not increasing above 1.3 bar (regardless of fueling and timing) he would have seen there was no need to go to 1.55bar. Yes they use g meters but obviously it wasnt working great that day. Or maybe there was a wind, up hill, down hill or what ever. This is what I mean by guess work. The car now makes 288hp and 255.4ftlb @ 1.3bar where it was making 273bhp and 232ftlb at 1.55bar after road map. After Nicks map I have no cold start issues and power delivery is much better. And yes I'm sure a freshly built engine can deliver more power than one on its last legs but boost inefficiency was due to the exhaust restriction not the engines ability to make the power.
So all in all I was much happier with the results of Dyno mapping with road tweeking. I also know lads who are happy with road mapping but they never tried dyno mapping. Different strokes for different folks...... but my preference is dyno and then tweeked on the road. As I said before this is just my opinion from personal experience. One thing that can't be disputed is that any mapping will increase the chance of mechanical failure as I also found out......the hard way
I'd normally stay away from all this big massive essay reply stuff but i feel here i cannot. I'll quote in Capital letters my reply to above
I completely agree mac mac that Bob and Simon are tried and tested experts and trusted traders on this site. Haven't heard of Pat but I'm sure its the same story if ye lads recommend him. My comment was related to personal experience with trying both methods.
HI DAVE. YOU HAVE NOT TRIED BOTH METHODS AS SUCH AS ONE READING TO ANOTHER WAS NOT CARRIED OUT ON SAME MACHINE. ONE WAS A ROLLING ROAD AND OTHER WAS A WINDSCREEN WINDSCREEN MOUNTED G-TECH METER. AND ALSO MOST IMPORTANT WAS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT ENGINE SPEC.
I spent about a month researching both sides of the argument and decided to go with road mapping. After all we drive our cars on the road and almost any arguement could be counter argued with both for and against with equal credability.
The mapping service was hastle free and couldn't be described in any way other than excellent. After that had problems with cold starts and had practically no power difference between high and low boost settings even though there was a boost difference of .45bar. This was measured on a gtech ss so I thought maybe it was the gtech but my "ass meter" also seemed to confirm this. Turbo went then 5 days after mapping but it was the original turbo, 10 years old and had 53k kms on it.
SIMTEKS CAN SOMETIMES HAVE COLD START ISSUES. AFTERALL ITS A MOTORSPORT ECU NOT WORKIN OF A MAF FOR THE ROAD. AND YOU SAY HAD NO POWER DIFFERENCES BETWEEN 1.1 BAR AND 1.45 BAR. AS YOU SAY THIS WAS MEASURED ON A WINDSCREEN MOUNTED METER BUT TO SAY IT RECORDED NO DIFFERANCE BETWEEN BOOST LEVELS SUCH AS ABOVE IS NOT EXACTLY CREDITABLE. AND PEOPLE GET MAPPED MAPPED WEATHER ON ROAD OR DYNO AND DONT RECORD A TURBO FAILURE AND ON TOP OF THAT I HAD TALKED TO YOU ABOUT TWO WEEKS AFTER MAPPING ABOUT YOUR FAILED LAMBDA AND NO MENTION OF TURBO FAILURE. I DONT SEE HOW NOT TELLING THINGS CORRECTLY IS BENIFICIAL TO ANYONE
Couldn't find a good vf24 so got the closest thing I could which was a vf28. Practially identical but decided not to risk just running it as is. Had to get it mapped again. The original mapper wasnt available for a while so decided to go to Couture purely for convienence and he is also a tried and tested trader here. Nick explained it would be mapped on the rollers and then tweeked on the road. Surely the best of both worlds so went with that.
SO YOU REPLACED THE MAPPED TURBO WHICH TURNED OUT TO BE A DYING TURBO AND THEN REPLACED WITH A DIFFERENT TURBO A VF28 BUT WISELY WENT TO GET IT MAPPED AT SAME TIME
Then worst case scenario.... engine went on the rollers. Long story short got it rebuilt and mapped again on the rollers and tweeked on the road.
BUT IT FAILED DURING MAPPING THIS TURBO IN. YES IT CAN HAPPEN.
Nick said when mapping there was no power increase above 1.3bar so he left it at that. This was due to the fact it had a standard exhaust and cat fitted. In my opinion I think this points out a major flaw in the road mapping theory. Had the original road mapper been able to identify that the power was not increasing above 1.3 bar (regardless of fueling and timing) he would have seen there was no need to go to 1.55bar. Yes they use g meters but obviously it wasnt working great that day. Or maybe there was a wind, up hill, down hill or what ever. This is what I mean by guess work. The car now makes 288hp and 255.4ftlb @ 1.3bar where it was making 273bhp and 232ftlb at 1.55bar after road map. After Nicks map I have no cold start issues and power delivery is much better. And yes I'm sure a freshly built engine can deliver more power than one on its last legs but boost inefficiency was due to the exhaust restriction not the engines ability to make the power.
THIS IS WHERE ITS STARTS TO GET SILLY. YOUR COMPARISION TOTALLY GOES OUT THE WINDOW. WAS HEADS SKIMMED CHANGING HEAD CC VOLUME. THE PISTONS USED ARE COSWORTH MEANING PISTON DISH VOLUME FOR A 99+ CAR. WAT SIZE HEAD GASKET USED? A COSWORTH? WELL BIGGEST IS A 1.1 OR A 0.78MM AND FACTORY V4 IS 1.47MM. SO ALL THATS MEANS A TOTALLY TOTALLY DIFFERENT COMPRESSION RATIO. AND WITH ALL THE EXPLAINED AND RUNNING ON FULLY FORGED ENGINE INCL WITH CAT, WOULD HAVE EXPECTED BOOST IN AREA 1.45BAR WITH POWER 295-305 and with torque at 232lb/ft on road map i think that is very questionable.
So all in all I was much happier with the results of Dyno mapping with road tweeking. I also know lads who are happy with road mapping but they never tried dyno mapping. Different strokes for different folks...... but my preference is dyno and then tweeked on the road. As I said before this is just my opinion from personal experience. One thing that can't be disputed is that any mapping will increase the chance of mechanical failure as I also found out......the hard way
SO ALL IN ALL YOUR OPINION IS DYNO MAPPED AND TWEEKED ON ROAD. SURELY THAT EQUALS ? MAPPED ON DYNO FOR A WHILE AND FINISHED ON THE ROAD. THE END RESULT EQUALING ROAD MAPPED ANYWAY. THEREFORE WHY WASTE ALL THE TIME ON ROLLERS TO GO OUT ON ROAD ANYWAY. YOUR COMPARRISION RESULTS ARE TOTALLY IRRELIVENT AS NOT LIKE FOR LIKE
DAVE
sc86 said:
Your ECU is already mapped with ECUtek software. A tweek map is just a slight adjustment of the software thats ALREADY been programmed in there by the previous mapper. As for it being mapped for 95 only the previous owner or mapper can answer that question.
Regarding the dyno map or road map.....I drive my car everyday on a road therefore why only dyno map? I dont drive my car on a dyno all day
Also, as Dave said, a dyno map then fine tune on the road is essentially a road map.
Paddy scooby
Middle Lane Hogs
Hi,
In my old type-r I had it dyno mapped twice and than last time road mapped, and there is ABSOLUTELY no comparasion mate!
It was like a different car with the road map, twice the car of the dyno map! I will never, EVER, reccommend anyone that is looking for real performance to get a dyno map! If its figures your after get a dyno map, if its real world drivability and excitement when driving - road map all the way.
The debate has been going on for along time on many forums but my personal non-biased experience is a road map will deliver the goods! Mapper and car dependant of course.
Rgds
Paddy
In my old type-r I had it dyno mapped twice and than last time road mapped, and there is ABSOLUTELY no comparasion mate!
It was like a different car with the road map, twice the car of the dyno map! I will never, EVER, reccommend anyone that is looking for real performance to get a dyno map! If its figures your after get a dyno map, if its real world drivability and excitement when driving - road map all the way.
The debate has been going on for along time on many forums but my personal non-biased experience is a road map will deliver the goods! Mapper and car dependant of course.
Rgds
Paddy
Hi I don't normally post very often but feel I need to say something here. I have an 03 STi that is road mapped and love it and have had no issues with it, touch wood. First of all I can vouch for what DavetypeR is saying about what was measured and what went wrong with his car, which personally I think a lot of was down to the first remap, just my opinion. And that secondly the way that the car was running after the first remap was not at all right, it did not have cold start issues it just didn't start. And when the turbo went it was at the ISDC track day and when it happend he walked straight over to Dave and told him there and then and got no help from him. The Gtech used to measure the results from the first remap has been used in other cars that have previously been dyno'd and it has shown the same or very similar wheel HP and torque figures as the dyno on both low and high boost settings, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the ecutek software use an accelerometer based programe also? As to the boost levels 1.55bar on a VF24, let alone a 10 year old one, seems crazy to me but then I'm no expert. I think that DavetypeR has been very understanding about all this and has never tried to blame anyone in particular on the open forum or slate anyone, maybe some people should try to keep that in mind! and not go basically calling him a liar!