New fuel from Maxol (not E85)

I've joined the Australian Impreza WRX Club so I can take a look at their (members-only) forum and see what their experience with ethanol blends has been, only they don't have much to say about it and seem to be tending to avoid them - but then they've got "proper" 98ron petrol anyway and mostly consider the ethanol blended fuels inferior.*

However, I did thus come across Subaru Australia's press release - which indicates that the source of their information is Fuji Heavy Industries' (i.e. Subaru Japan's) own data/testing - from the time such fuels were brought out there, and in the third sentence it does actually state what the problems are with the B4 & STi (whoopee!!  :salute:), in fact they seem to be pretty much what I'd already surmised from the Report of the Biofuels Taskforce:

Subaru and Ethanol

For your information the situation with Subaru vehicles is as follows: -

All Subaru Liberty, Impreza, Forester and Outback vehicles produced after Model Year 1990 with the exception of Liberty B4 and Impreza WRX STi MY99 & MY00 models are able to operate on a maximum of 10% Ethanol blend (E10).

All model year Liberty B4 and Impreza WRX STi MY99-00 models may experience starting and or drivability concerns if ethanol blended fuel of any level is used and therefore we do not recommend its use.

For all other Subaru models including but not limited to ‘L Series’ and Brumby, FHI has no test data for these models when operating on ethanol and therefore we cannot recommend its use.

Important

Because Fuji Heavy Industries (the maker of Subaru vehicles) has done no testing on Ethanol blends greater than 10% we do NOT recommend using fuel containing greater than 10% Ethanol.

Ethanol blends greater than 10% may cause driveability problems and or operating system component parts failure such as; -

Fuel line (hose, injector-sealing, delivery pipe, pump, regulator)
Exhaust (EPR, Muffler)

Failures and or drivability issues caused by greater than 10% ethanol use and or fuel not meeting the minimum standard prescribed in the owners handbook will not be covered by warranty.
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*Edited to add - The blue-highlighted part of the TERNZ Report (see Reply 144 below) that I've since found may shed some light on this attitude amongst Australian Subaru drivers:

As of 1 July 2003, the Australian Fuel quality standards have allowed ethanol blends of up to 10%. Since 1 March 2004, blends greater than 1% have been required to be labelled. In the initial stages a lack of quality control and poor blending practices led to some poor quality fuels with 20% or more ethanol content being sold. This resulted in some vehicle operability problems which had a significant negative impact on the reputation of ethanol fuel blends. Although the problems with fuel quality have now been addressed the poor public perception of ethanol blends is taking some time to overcome.
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[quote author=WetPatch link=topic=3466.msg37791#msg37791 date=1190315862]
So E5 would b covered in the warranty?[/quote]

In Australia yes, but it's a whole new issue here and we've yet to hear a pronouncement from Subaru Ireland (I may have "set the cat amongst the pigeons" there, quoting the stuff from Australia & New Zealand to them - no wonder they haven't answered me yet!)

Also is it just the 99 and 00 STI that have the problems?
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They seem to be the ones particularly mentioned, though other years of STi are also listed elsewhere.

One of the Aussies was even saying that his Subaru garage keep telling him not to use it in his WRX as "it's bad for the fuel lines" and "it'll kill it". You get the impression that the Subaru drivers/garages there don't trust the stuff, but then they do have freely available "proper" 98ron petrol anyway.

It's beginning to look like it may be a case of "give it a go" in your B4 or STi and see what happens, but don't be surprised if it causes problems with starting and acceleration (and don't blame me if it's anything worse - I'm just trying to interpret the odd snippets of information that I can find on the subject!  :dunno:)
 
If you read the handbook page 17 on the MY98 download on the site. It says never used alcohol blended fuel of more than 10%. Its there in black and white for the MY98 impreza anyway. I havent had a chance to check the other manuals. Maybe they say the same?
 
[quote author=Dagnut link=topic=3466.msg37436#msg37436 date=1190152688]
seems to me an official statement from NZ Subaru would naturally try to discourage use of Jap imports in any way they can![/quote]

You might think so (if you had a suspicious mind like ;)), but in fact their views stem from research published by the Japanese Automotive Manufacturers Association (JAMA), who do not endorse ethanol blends higher than 3%, and data/testing by Fuji Heavy Industries (Subaru Japan) themselves.

I've now found an interesting report "Risks to vehicles and other engines", Prepared for [the New Zealand] Ministry of Transport, April 2006 by Transport Engineering Research New Zealand Limited (TERNZ - a "research organisation providing high quality independent research services to the transport industry"), which states:

There is considerable international experience over quite a long period with the use of biofuel blends with relatively few recent reports of any negative impacts on vehicles and engines. A key issue for New Zealand is the relatively large proportion of the vehicle fleet that is made up of Japanese domestic market vehicles which have been imported as used vehicles. Japan does not currently use biofuel blends to any significant extent and thus compatibility is not guaranteed ... Japan has permitted the use of E3 blends since 2003 although relatively little blended fuel has been used. Testing programmes have been undertaken and the aim is to have most fuel in Japan as E3 by 2012. There is an intention to introduce E10 once E3 has been tested and accepted. Prior to the 2003 regulation change there was no limit of the use of fuel alcohols and some high level blends (40-50%) of dubious quality were sold to automotive users with some adverse impacts ... JAMA have produced a test report that indicates potential problems with fuel system degradation and corrosion for blends higher than E3. EECA commissioned Fuel Technology Ltd to undertake a brief review of this report. Fuel Technology’s review found some significant inconsistencies in the results presented in the report and suggested that there may have been some problems with their experimental procedures. However, as noted by Fuel Technology, the English version of the report is a summary translation from the original Japanese and some of the original intent may not have been fully conveyed.

Overall it would appear that the risks associated with the use of E5 blends are not significantly higher than those associated with E3. However, a number of the Japanese vehicle manufacturers are not prepared to endorse the use of E5 and so there may be a reluctance of the part of operators of these vehicles to use the fuel.
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The same TERNZ report also goes into potential problems in some detail (but I've highlighted in blue what seem to be the likely issues for B4 and STi Subarus, just in case you don't want to read it all  :wazzup:):

1.2. Potential problems associated with ethanol blends

A number of potential problems have been associated with the use of fuel ethanol and ethanol blends. These are:

• Degradation of fuel system components
• Corrosion of fuel system components
• Phase separation
• Fuel system blockages
• Volatility changes affecting engine operability
• Enleanment affecting engine operability
• Paint damage from spillages

Degradation of fuel system components can potentially occur because of incompatibilities between the materials used for hoses, seals, O-rings, membranes and gaskets and ethanol. The typical mechanism is that the ethanol is absorbed into the material and breaks down the molecular bonds within it. This can lead to swelling of the material, softening or embrittlement and eventually failure of the component. With older motorcycles and marine applications there is a potential problem with fibreglass fuel tanks. In this case the ethanol may react with the resins in the matrix.

Some soft metals such as aluminium copper (brass) and zinc are incompatible with ethanol and can suffer corrosion and pitting if exposed to it for extended periods. Furthermore ethanol dissolves in water and is more electrically conductive than petrol.

The presence of water can facilitate corrosion and the conductivity facilitates the possibility of galvanic corrosion.

As noted above water dissolves in ethanol to a much greater extent than it dissolves in petrol. Some water can be dissolved in ethanol-petrol blends and will pass through the fuel system with no effect. However, if the amount of water present is too great the blend will separate into an upper petrol layer and a lower water/ethanol layer. Generally fuel is drawn from the bottom of the tank so the water/ethanol layer will be drawn into the engine first and the engine will not run.

Ethanol has a solvent effect and will loosen gums and other deposits in fuel systems that have been operated on mineral petrol a long time. In extreme cases this can clog fuel filters and cause the engine to run poorly.

The volatility characteristics of an ethanol/petrol blend differ from those of the unblended petrol on its own. These differences in volatility can impact on engine operability. In particular the higher latent heat of vaporisation can lead to cold starting difficulties while higher vapour pressures can result in vapour lock problems when the engine is hot.

The ethanol molecule contains oxygen while the main components of petrol do not. The effect of this is that less oxygen from air is required to achieve complete combustion and so if the air/fuel mixture is not adjusted the mixture is leaner than it would be on pure petrol. This can lead to engine operability problems such as hesitancy at full throttle and/or higher exhaust temperatures.

The solvent effect of ethanol is more likely to cause damage to car paint work in the event of fuels spillages than conventional petrol. However, the aromatics used in unleaded petrol to boost the octane level also have a corrosive effect of paint work. Modern paint systems are more resistant to this form of damage but in all cases petrol spillages should be washed off as soon as possible. Because ethanol is water-soluble it is easier to wash off.

1.3.How likely are these problems to occur

There are a number of factors which influence the likelihood of these problems occurring. The main ones are:

• Fuel system materials
• Engine technology
• Fuel quality standards
• Proportion of ethanol in blend
• Operating environment

1.3.1. Fuel System Materials

The susceptibility of fuel systems to degradation and corrosion is influenced strongly by the materials used in these systems. In Brazil where relatively high levels of ethanol blend have been in widespread use for many years now, appropriate fuel system materials have been fitted and these problems do not occur. When E10 was introduced in the USA in the late 1970s some problems were reported with the fuels systems on early 1970s vehicles. Changes in fuel system materials from the mid-1970s onwards have eliminated these problems. The elimination of tetra ethyl lead as an additive to petrol resulted in the use of various aromatics (benzene and toluene) as alternative octane boosters. These additives also have material incompatibility problems with some elastomers which are similar although not identical to the incompatibility with ethanol. Fuel systems that are designed to cope with unleaded fuel are less likely to have incompatibility problems with ethanol blends.

1.3.2. Engine Technology

Although the susceptibility of vehicles and engines to problems is often associated with year of manufacture (pre 1986 is an often quoted figure) they generally are associated with technology changes. Older vehicles typically use carburettors or mechanical fuel injection systems to deliver the fuel/air mixture to the engine. These systems are typically also open-loop which means that the fuel air mixture is pre-determined by the calibration of the fuel delivery system. More modern engines typically use electronic fuel injection systems and are closed-loop which means that the engine control unit (ECU) monitors the exhaust gases and adjusts the fuel/air mixture to optimise combustion. Carburettors typically contain materials that have compatibility problems with ethanol (aluminium and brass). Open-loop fuel systems will result in some enleanment but the engine can be recalibrated (i.e. tuned) for the higher oxygen levels. Closed loop systems can adapt to the additional oxygen in the ethanol and prevent enleanment.

1.3.3. Fuel standards

The potential problems associated with the different volatility characteristics of ethanol blends can be avoided through appropriate fuel standards. It is quite possible to achieve volatility characteristics that are within the acceptable range of all engines.

1.3.4. Blend proportions

The proportion of ethanol within the fuel blend has a major impact on whether any of the potential problems actually materialise. Generally speaking the lower the level of blend the less likely the problems are to occur. The one notable exception is that it takes less water to cause phase separation with low level blends than with higher level blends.

1.3.5. Operating Environment

The final factor is the operating environment. Some of the potential problems identified above are only likely to occur on the transition from using an unblended fuel to using an ethanol blend. The solvent action of the ethanol causing fuel filter blockages is only likely to occur on older engines that have been using petrol for a long time. Furthermore once the fuel system is clean and the filter has been replaced the problem should not recur and the cleaner fuel system should lead to improved performance. Similarly phase separation, if it occurs at all, is most likely to occur on the changeover to using blended fuels. Once any residual moisture has been cleared from the fuel system the ethanol blend will absorb any new moisture and allow it to pass through the engine so that the fuel system will be dryer than it is with petrol. The exception to this is where fuel is left to stand for extended periods. In this case the ethanol blends may absorb excessive amounts of moisture from the atmosphere and suffer phase separation. This scenario can occur with utility engines such as garden equipment which may be used infrequently. The user manuals for these engines almost invariably recommend draining the fuel system if the engine is not going to be used for some time.

1.3.6. Blends and Applications

Consider now specific fuel blends and specific applications. The brief for this study specified that ethanol blends would not be used in aviation and marine applications. The issue of aviation use is clear. Ethanol blends are specifically excluded by the FAA which sets the standards for aviation safety. Aircraft operate through significant changes in temperature and pressure and any operability issues resulting from ethanol could have serious consequences. The situation with respect to marine applications is less clear. The basis of this appears to be the risk of water ingress into the fuel system. However, this would also be a serious problem for a conventionally fuelled system. Many of the major outboard motor manufacturers accept the use of ethanol blends up to 10% with their engines and in a number of US states the marine use of ethanol blends is encouraged because fuel spills are less environmentally damaging with these fuels.

1.3.7. E3 Blends

3% ethanol blends are permitted in Europe, the United States, Australia and Japan who are the main sources of petrol engines in New Zealand. No evidence of any problems with E3 blends has been found and it is extremely unlikely that there are any significant long-term risks associated with using this fuel on either automotive or non-automotive applications. For older engines the transition to E3 may cause the fuel filter clogging effect noted previously but this is a minor temporary problem and the positive outcome is a cleaner fuel system.

1.3.8. E5 Blends

E5 blends are an accepted fuel in Europe, Australia and the United States but not in Japan. In Europe E5 does not need to be labelled and there is a proposal to remove the labelling requirement in Australia. The fact that there is no labelling requirement in Europe suggests that European legislators do not believe there are any risks associated with the use of E5 even for older engines. No evidence has been found of any problems with the use of E5 blends but, to date, the fuel has only achieved a relatively low market penetration. It is quite extensively used in Sweden but only in limited quantities in other European countries. The Australian Biofuels task force have also suggested that the labelling requirement could possibly be removed for E5 blends but that some further testing should be undertaken first. This position would appear to be based on the European stance.

India has also trialled E5 extensively with no reported problems. Although Indian vehicles are not comparable with the New Zealand fleet, they generally reflect old automotive technology. (Bursa 1999) notes that when India introduced its emission standards in 1999, Murati, who is India's largest car manufacturer, still had carburettors on all models. All current models do have fuel injection but overall the fleet has relatively old technology.

JAMA have produced a test report that indicates potential problems with fuel system degradation and corrosion for blends higher than E3. EECA commissioned Fuel Technology Ltd to undertake a brief review of this report. Fuel Technology’s review found some significant inconsistencies in the results presented in the report and suggested that there may have been some problems with their experimental procedures. However, as noted by Fuel Technology, the English version of the report is a summary translation from the original Japanese and some of the original intent may not have been fully conveyed.

Overall it would appear that the risks associated with the use of E5 blends are not significantly higher than those associated with E3. However, a number of the Japanese vehicle manufacturers are not prepared to endorse the use of E5 and so there may be a reluctance of the part of operators of these vehicles to use the fuel.

1.3.9. E10 Blends

E10 blends are permitted in both the USA and Australia. In the USA there were some problems with older vehicles (pre early 1970s) when the fuel was first introduced but these have long since been resolved. All US automobile suppliers now endorse the use of E10 fuel on their vehicles and most producers of other utility engines also endorse the use of E10. In Australia, the FCAI produced a list of vehicles that are capable or not capable of operating on E10 which includes a significant number of not-capable vehicles. Although the general thrust of most reports is that only older vehicles (usually pre 1986) are likely to have compatibility problems the FCAI contains a significant number of newer vehicles. Associated with the FCAI list is a range of reasons why vehicles might be incompatible. The main reason for the newer vehicles appears to be that the level of oxygen in E10 is outside the range of the ECUs ability to adjust the fuel mixture. Based on the US experience it would appear that there may be some problems with fuel system materials compatibility on older vehicles but that these are relatively minor. However, there are a significant number of vehicles whose manufacturers do not endorse the use of E10 and this is likely to deter many owners from using the fuel. If the only users of E10 blends are those whose engine manufacturers endorse its use then there should be virtually no risk.

1.3.10. Blends above 10%

Blends higher than E10 have been used extensively in Brazil for many years now but these required vehicle modifications. Tests in Australia with E20 blends on unmodified vehicles have identified some problems with materials compatibility and engine operability. It is clear that higher proportion blends do have risks for unmodified engines although these can be overcome with sufficient commitment to this type of fuel. It is worth noting that the World-Wide Fuel Charter specifies a 10% ethanol limit and so moving to higher blends would take New Zealand outside the current mainstream engine market.
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@greenwagon fair play to ya looking up all this info.! top man..but not being smart im gonna use this e5 i dought very much there will be bad effects see how it goes!
 
Same here! Fair play green wagon :thumbsup:
I'll be getting her mapped for E5 as soon as I get anything else done with the forester!
I do very much appreciate all the info though!!
Dan
 
Same here I'll be usiing e5. I've already experimented with E85 and Unleaded. I have to sat that the engine ran a lot smoother with it.
 
[quote author=b4 boy/rourkey link=topic=3466.msg38094#msg38094 date=1190504485]
... i dought very much there will be bad effects see how it goes!
[/quote]

Judging by your thread about overrun flames, it sounds like you might possibly have got an unexpected tank of E5 in your B4 already???  :whistle:

Though if Timo is right and ...

[quote author=Timo link=topic=3732.msg38116#msg38116 date=1190546726]
... most maxols now have E5 at the pumps although their not stickered up until all refills are complete and official launch
[/quote]

then it's potentially irresponsible of Maxol to be selling it without telling people as most, but not all cars can run on it.
 
[quote author=forester sti link=topic=3466.msg37418#msg37418 date=1190148963]
Question is if your mapped for 104ron E85 can you then drive through the uk and make do with 98ron super plus lucas if you where away???
Opinions?[/quote]

[quote author=elusiveguy link=topic=3466.msg37771#msg37771 date=1190311466]
I emailed Lucas about reactions with the booster... no reply... [/quote]

The relevant properties of ethanol blends sound rather similar to those of V-Power (though there's not supposed to be any ethanol in the latter, except the 100ron V-Power Racing that's available in some countries) and the contradiction would be a similar one in that the Lucas needs to deposit a film in the engine while the ethanol wants to clean it  :ponder: , as Philip has already said:

[quote author=pbsti link=topic=3466.msg37416#msg37416 date=1190148636]
... you ar wasteing you time useing lucas booster as these over time coat the piston and control the flame ,the ethanol in the fuel will clean your pistons and give cleaner burn
[/quote]
 
In fairness, if we can't use booster with E5 it's no big deal! standard E5 is still alot better than current unleaded!
So should still make a nice differnce once mapped to suit! :thumbsup:
Dan
 
I would be interested to see what the mappers say about running cars on E5
0r E85..............if it was a good choice how diificult would it be to change the fuel lines
etc ????

Hmm :ponder: :ponder: the plot thicken's :D

Fair play greenwagon, you really have done your homework on this :thumbsup:

Niall.
 
[quote author=b4 boy/rourkey link=topic=3466.msg38167#msg38167 date=1190583528]
why will e5 make pops and bangs ..(im de catted)
[/quote]

I'm not up on the techniclities of that, but Timo said his mates Evo was behaving similarly on E5 and the stuff is more volatile than petrol (it may have the same ron rating, but it isn't the same as 99ron petrol), whilst you mentioned that this became a problem after filling up. (Maybe you should see what happens on a tank of different petrol?) Also we know the Australians have said there are issues with using E5 in some performance/turbo cars and Subaru themselves say that the B4 is unsuitable for using it... 
 
Got my car mapped over the weekend and was told than when the e5 comes in to run it on that. Not sure if octane booster would be required, but Pat said to run it on E5 when it came out.

Sounds promising. Has anyone come across it at any garages yet?
 
Hello,

those 5% is really not a problem - actually in most if not all modern cars. As I said before in thread about E85 and mixing it with petrol, when many of you told "no" to ethanol and "experiments" etc. - I've been using bioethanol mix for last 2 or 3 months (5 to 15% - more is not necessary and not suitable because of AFR) and... it's really kind of solution.
However I think it can be still good to have a remap - not for poor 95RON,but for 99RON E5 - to get as much power as you can from your car. To those, who again ask me - why to risk, isn't those let's say 240-250BHP on 95RON enough? - I don't buy Subaru Impreza to do such a compromise - do you? :) I want to get out of that car as much as possible. If I decide to get ordinary car to go shopping etc. - I'll buy Opel Astra :)

In most cases producers of cars, like Subaru in our case will sure tell you that E5 is not suitable and may cause issues - that's clear they want to protect themselves against sueing, petitions in courts if you know what I mean. It's because some people really can try to put some strange fluids into their tanks. BTW - has anyone ever asked Subaru Ireland what they think about using octane booster with fuel?

Of course if you overdo with ethanol/methanol etc. it may cause problems or even damages - but be sure (I am) - Maxol also knows what to do - I'm sure they don't want to spent a time in courts and then pay damages to people using Maxol's fuel :). That's why it's only 5% mixture (however in some other countries petrol stations sell 10% mix without any special notifications and all cars stil work fine).

But if you still have so many doubts - again I think it's good idea to read that Nasioc thread about mixing E85 with petrol, and those others pages about bioethanol and its properties I linked those few weeks ago.

If really for some strange reason ECU and engine (?) in Subaru Legacy Turbo differs so much - there should be still no problem with small tests if you buy once E5 to see how does it work in your cars. I hardly can imagine that E5 will make BANG to your engine.

Anyway, to those who can't wait for new E5 on Maxol stations - if you only have a pump with E85 - you can easily make your own "E5" simply adding about 4-5l (to make sure you will not overdose:)) of E85 to your tank and then fill it full with petrol - it will give you about 5%. According to my and other people (Nasioc) experiences - such a small addition of (bio)ethanol shouldn't (or rather will not) do any harm to your engines.
But of course if you're really afraid - stay with cars remapped and with Lucas - I don't want to take any responsibility if somebody blow his engine because of immoderation in mix or something :)

That's my 5c in this discussion - anyway - myself I think it's great to have E5 at least, if no possibility to get "real" 99+RON petrol around.

Cheers
 
SORTED!!!???
Sure lets try it for the craic!
If nothing else maxol are not in business of scaring off customers! Espeically not thirsty customers like us scooby drivers! They do advertise that it gives your car better performance, and if they thought it was dodgy at all they would have disclaimers all over the place!
Dan

@ Rudeboy,
Good thinking with the E85 and petrol mix! :thumbsup:
 
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