New fuel from Maxol (not E85)

I've sent the following enquiry to Maxol

Official statements on E5 and E10 from Australia and New Zealand suggest that ethanol blends are unsuitable for use in many cars with turbos, as well as in secondhand cars imported from Japan.
Could you please comment on this as it is of great concern to those of us who drive Subarus and similar cars?
Click to expand...

So let's see what kind of an answer I get this time, and it had better be more than a single word from the receptionist! ;)
 
And this one to Subaru Ireland:

[size=10pt]In the light of the introduction of Maxol E5 ethanol blended petrol in Ireland, could you please comment on the following statement from Subaru New Zealand?[/size]


Tuesday, September 4th, 2007

[size=10pt]Ethanol compatability[/size]

Most Subarus purchased new in New Zealand since 1990 are capable of running on the ethanol blended fuel now being introduced to the local market.

However any Japanese domestic specification models which have been imported here second hand (i.e., second hand Japanese imports) - should not be run on the ethanol blended fuel.

These cars are only suitable for 3 percent blended fuels. The fuel being sold in New Zealand has a 10 percent ethanol blend.

The 10 percent ethanol blended fuel could cause damage to the fuel line, fuel injector sealing, fuel pump or fuel regulator of these second hand Japanese imports. The fumes from the blended fuel after combustion can also have a harmful effect on the catalytic converter, the exhaust gas regulator and the muffler.

Those Subarus which can use the 10 percent ethanol blended fuel have a 17 digit VIN number beginning with either JF1 or JF2. The VIN number can be found at the bottom of the central door pillar on the passenger’s side of the car or in the engine bay.

The second hand Japanese imports which should not use the ethanol blended fuel have VIN numbers starting with 7A8

A small number of models sold new in New Zealand cannot use the 10 percent blended fuel. They are.-

Legacy RS, Legacy GT, Legacy GTB, Legacy RSK and Legacy Blitzen from 1990 onwards; the Impreza STI from 1997 onwards and the Forester STI. They do not have JF1 or JF2 VIN numbers.

Owners who are not sure if they can use the ethanol-blended fuel in their car should consult their nearest Subaru Authorized Dealer.

IN SUMMARY

DO NOT USE Ethanol Blended Fuel – E5 or E10 if your car is:

• A Subaru with VIN Number that starts with 7A8
or
• Second hand Japanese imported Subaru
or
• A New Zealand New Subaru that is any of these models:
- Legacy RS, Legacy GT, Legacy GTB, Legacy RSK and Legacy Blitzen
- Impreza STI
- Forester STI

Your car CAN USE Ethanol Blended Fuel – E5 or E10:

• Only New Zealand new Subarus models 1990 onwards with a VIN number beginning with JF1 or JF2 may use E5 or E10 blended fuels

Note: The VIN number is a 17-digit number that can be found at the bottom of the central door pillar on the passenger’s side of the car or in the engine bay.



[size=10pt]These issues are presently under discussion on the website of the Irish Subaru Drivers Club and I’m sure that a clarification from yourselves would be greatly appreciated by Subaru drivers all over Ireland.[/size]
Click to expand...

So let's see what kind of response we get ...
 
Any car in this country will run fine on e5 but it is advised that you get the car remaped to suit for the best gains ,but you ar wasteing you time useing lucas booster as these over time coat the piston and control the flame ,the ethanol in the fuel will clean your pistons and give cleaner burn (more ingt advance more power)


Philip.


My car runs on full e85 which is 15% petrol and 85% ethanol .
 
@ greenwagon!
Fair play man! It's not easy being the barer of bad news!
Phillip's comments breed new hope though! good stuff pbsti :thumbsup:

Question is if your mapped for 104ron E85 can you then drive through the uk and make do with 98ron super plus lucas if you where away???
Opinions?
Dan
 
[quote author=forester sti link=topic=3466.msg37418#msg37418 date=1190148963]
@ greenwagon!
Fair play man! It's not easy being the barer of bad news!
[/quote]

Thanks Dan, as in "Don't shoot the messenger?" (I've got me "tin 'at" on!)  :pray:

I don't pretend to understand all the issues, but trying to get to the bottom of something like this is right up my street as I was a Chartered Librarian by profession, though I gave it up long ago to work with musical instruments.
 
I'm sure everyone here appreciates you  putting your time and effort into try to get to the bottom of this! :thumbsup: :clap:
Same goes for the rest of the lads e-mailing and researching! because when you lads do find out what's what, then we will all benifit! :dance:
so thanks lads!
Dan
 
seems to me an official statement from NZ Subaru would naturally try to discourage use of Jap imports in any way they can!
lads in the US are runing 30% blend e85 with no issues..that's nearly 30% ethanol so where is the harm in using 5% ethanol in e85?
the problems with the fuel line etc is because ethanol corrodes rubber in the lines..but nearly all modern cars use synthetic rubber so that's not a problem..
 
Well I got a reply from Maxol this morning, but it was only a "generic" one from Harriette Faulkner quoting from their Q&A (and originally sent as a reply to the owner of a UK-model WRX in Letterkenny a few days ago), so I persisted and answered:

[size=10pt]Thank you for your email, but it seems to have been in reply to an enquiry from another Subaru driver in Co. Donegal and does not answer my question, which was:[/size]

Official statements on E5 and E10 from Australia and New Zealand suggest that ethanol blends are unsuitable for use in many cars with turbos, as well as in secondhand cars imported from Japan.

Could you please comment on this as it is of great concern to those of us who drive Subarus and similar cars?


[size=10pt]Let me elaborate:

The Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries in Australia has stated that “the vast majority of imported new cars sold in Australia are also compatible with E10 or E5. The essential thing to note however is that if your car is a performance car, specially turbo or supercharged, then ethanol fuel may not be for you” and specifically listed the turbo Subaru Liberty/Legacy B4 (2002 to 2003), Liberty/Legacy GT (2004 - 2006) and Impreza WRX STI (1999 to 2005) as being unsuitable for use with either E5 or E10.

Whilst Subaru New Zealand has recently issued the following statement:[/size]


Tuesday, September 4th, 2007

[size=10pt]Ethanol compatability[/size]

Most Subarus purchased new in New Zealand since 1990 are capable of running on the ethanol blended fuel now being introduced to the local market.

However any Japanese domestic specification models which have been imported here second hand (i.e., second hand Japanese imports) - should not be run on the ethanol blended fuel.

These cars are only suitable for 3 percent blended fuels. The fuel being sold in New Zealand has a 10 percent ethanol blend.

The 10 percent ethanol blended fuel could cause damage to the fuel line, fuel injector sealing, fuel pump or fuel regulator of these second hand Japanese imports. The fumes from the blended fuel after combustion can also have a harmful effect on the catalytic converter, the exhaust gas regulator and the muffler.

Those Subarus which can use the 10 percent ethanol blended fuel have a 17 digit VIN number beginning with either JF1 or JF2. The VIN number can be found at the bottom of the central door pillar on the passenger’s side of the car or in the engine bay.

The second hand Japanese imports which should not use the ethanol blended fuel have VIN numbers starting with 7A8

A small number of models sold new in New Zealand cannot use the 10 percent blended fuel. They are.-

Legacy RS, Legacy GT, Legacy GTB, Legacy RSK and Legacy Blitzen from 1990 onwards; the Impreza STI from 1997 onwards and the Forester STI. They do not have JF1 or JF2 VIN numbers.

Owners who are not sure if they can use the ethanol-blended fuel in their car should consult their nearest Subaru Authorized Dealer.

IN SUMMARY

DO NOT USE Ethanol Blended Fuel – E5 or E10 if your car is:

• A Subaru with VIN Number that starts with 7A8
or
• Second hand Japanese imported Subaru
or
• A New Zealand New Subaru that is any of these models:
- Legacy RS, Legacy GT, Legacy GTB, Legacy RSK and Legacy Blitzen
- Impreza STI
- Forester STI

Your car CAN USE Ethanol Blended Fuel – E5 or E10:

• Only New Zealand new Subarus models 1990 onwards with a VIN number beginning with JF1 or JF2 may use E5 or E10 blended fuels

Note: The VIN number is a 17-digit number that can be found at the bottom of the central door pillar on the passenger’s side of the car or in the engine bay.


[size=10pt]Perhaps it depends on your definition of what constitute “standard petrol powered vehicles”? But as you can imagine, this is causing great confusion for many drivers who have had to endure inadequate 95ron for the past decade and are keen to use your new 99.2ron E5 petrol.[/size]
Click to expand...


This afternoon I received the following from Pat Meehan, General Manager - Commercial, Supply & Operations, The Maxol Group:

Stephen,

Thank you for your email. While accepting that Australia & New Zealand have made statements as set out by you below, regrettably, we are not in a position to comment on the performance of individual cars using E5. If your vehicle is not a “Standard Petrol Engined Vehicle” I suggest that you seek clarification from your motor Dealer who hopefully, through Subaru, can obtain clarification for you.

Sorry I can’t be more helpful on this occasion.
Click to expand...

So I'm none the wiser on that score, and it sounds like they aren't either. Unfortunately they seem to be sheltering behind that ambiguous phrase “Standard Petrol Engined Vehicle” without defining what it means...  :( 

(Is there anything "standard" 'bout a Scooby?  :ponder:)

Maybe they should take a page out of the book of Gull Petroleum in New Zealand who've made available an Ethanol Suitability list compiled from information provided by members of their Motor Industry Association?
 
I've had no reply yet from Subaru Ireland (maybe I should try Subaru Japan?), but I did find an Australian Government Report (Report of the Biofuels Taskforce) that gives a better idea of the potential problems with ethanol:

[size=10pt]Technical reasons for inability to use E10 [/size]

The following are reasons why certain vehicle models cannot or should not use E10 because of material incompatibility and driveability issues respectively. There are also comments on possible exhaust and evaporative emissions issues. This list was compiled from information submitted by manufacturers.

Cannot use because of material incompatibility issues  

Early deterioration of components in fuel injection system:

• Fuel tanks
• Fuel lines/hoses
• Injector seals
• Delivery pipes
• Fuel pump and regulator

Vehicles with carburettor fuel systems may experience hot fuel handling concerns and may experience a lower level of durability in some fuel system components.

Some manufacturers advise not to use E10 with any model equipped with a carburettor because of material incompatibility.

Should not use because of driveability issues

Vapour pressure of fuel with ethanol will be greater (if not chemically adjusted) and probability of vapour lock or hot restartability problems will be increased.

Oxygen content of ethanol is 34.7%. This can cause the engine to run lean although the Engine Control Unit (ECU) can generally compensate via feedback from the O2 sensor under light throttle conditions. However, hesitation or flat-spots during acceleration can occur due to this lean-out effect.

Difficulty in starting and engine hesitation after cold start

Exhaust and evaporative emission levels

Lean-out resulting from the oxygenating effect of ethanol in the fuel may affect exhaust emissions. Fuel containing ethanol can increase permeation emissions from fuel systemcomponents.

Vapour pressure of fuel with ethanol will be greater (if not chemically adjusted at the refining stage) and can lead to increased evaporative emissions.
Click to expand...

And in its list of Motor Vehicles it gives some explanation of why certain models are deemed unsuitable (which can be simply that the manufacturer doesn't recommend biofuels), though for Subaru it only states that:

Subaru Liberty B4 (all year models) and Impreza WRX STI (1999 and 2000) do not operate satisfactorily on E10.

All other since MY1990 petrol engine Subaru vehicles will operate satisfactorily on E10.
Click to expand...

Which may suggest that the issues could be driveability ones? (In which case maybe a remap could solve them - I don't know - maybe it's that Subaru don't condone that kind of thing, or maybe the only solution is not to use ethanol?  :dunno:)
 
[quote author=BlackLegacy link=topic=3466.msg34650#msg34650 date=1188669937]... the fact that the bio-ethanol is added in cork rather than being imported as a finished product could have some bearing on the tax that is paid.[/quote]

One thing that I've found out about these ethanol blends is that they have to be blended locally as the stuff doesn't travel, and it can't be transported through pipelines either.

[quote author=scoobystu link=topic=3466.msg34684#msg34684 date=1188689145]
heard the guy from maxol on the radio the other day talking about the new fuel he said it should be the same price as normal unleaded [/quote]

And I've discovered that could be slightly misleading since, though it gives a higher ron rating, the ethanol is less efficient (30% less energy by volume) so you'll get less mpg for the same price.  :(
 
Yes but the calorific value of the E5 fuel is not much less than unleaded. For every litre of unleaded you would normally use you will need 1.02 litres of E5 instead. Thats a small sacrifice if the car runs ok with the E5

Using E5, 1193 litres [1170*1.02] of E5 fuel would be required resulting in the emission of 2.72 tonnes of CO2; (On basis of energy value, one needs 1.02 litres of E5 to replace 1 litre of Unleaded) Taken from the E Q&A off the maxol website
 
[quote author=Niallyboy link=topic=3466.msg37630#msg37630 date=1190279682]
Right has anybody seen or tried it yet ????
[/quote]

Doesn't seem to be much of it around yet, I enquired at the Maxol station in Clarecastle when I needed to fill up the other day, but the counter staff hadn't even heard about it and were trying to sell me E85. So I'm still running on V-Power.
 
[quote author=Niallyboy link=topic=3466.msg37669#msg37669 date=1190291506]
:thumbsup:

Sure it won't be long now, before Cork will be supplying all the
country's fuel :D
[/quote]

How "cheesy" can you get?  ;) :lol:
 
so can we actually use this stuff or is it going to "*%^&%£ up our cars
 
[quote author=johnroake link=topic=3466.msg37722#msg37722 date=1190303202]
so can we actually use this stuff or is it going to "*%^&%£ up our cars
[/quote]

I think the jury's still out on the models named by Subaru New Zealand (which would mainly be B4s & STis here), but an answer/statement from Subaru Ireland would be very helpful (I'll give them a week to find out about it themselves ;), then try again if I don't get a reply to my email).

They have longer experience of this in Australia, but unfortunately the relevant part of the Subaru Australia website is under revision at the moment - though that may well be a reflection of these issues...

But it's starting to look like it may be more the case that the models in question won't run very well on it, rather than actually "*%^&%£ing them up????  :dunno: (But please don't take my word for it!  :pray:)
 
I emailed Lucas about reactions with the booster... no reply... Maybe a few more could try it??
 
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